spend your time trying to persuade me that, no, I am in fact this thing you say

Did I? My apologies.

From my point of view, we got into this conversation the way we always do, pressing random buttons on the control board to see which one gets the “ping”. By now I think we each have some idea which direction of buttons we should be pushing — and yes, I know you get a bit defensive about deviancy. But we’ve accused each other of worse.

And sure, I did get a bit of a laugh from seeing you state with a straight face that what has been described as primal is actually just all sex, since that’s not been my experience at all. Some of your counter arguments, if not flirting with, are at least making eyes at “no real Scotsman” from across the room.

But I’ve been spending my time putting my understanding of the concept of ‘kink’ and ‘vanilla’ into words, and reading yours, which is very helpful since I’m writing erotica for pay and I’ve been told to do so for “the general audience” — which is vanilla-ish. Defining what is and isn’t considered vanilla is the first step. In my last response I’ve not spoken about you at all, that’s been 100% personal experience and personal opinion.

I did say “you” in the Baskin Robins metaphor. I didn’t know you’d take it as me putting you, as a person, into the same category as me, as a person. I was making the case that the labels you object to; the language and definitions of sexual behavior, were, in my opinion, created out of a desire to connect with a base understanding more than a desire to control. To share the flavor of sex you enjoy most.

Before I started writing publicly, I’ve written private, custom tailored, erotica for people. Those people had kinks I did not share. But by knowing the definition of the kink I knew the language to write in. For instance, “squish” is not really a word I would consider sexy. But someone with Macrophilia goes crazy over it. Since I looked up the kink, I was able to ask “foot or boobs?” and got my answer to what type of squish. There was no need for the person commissioning me to spell their kink out. Because we got into the communication with some level of understanding, we could spend the time on what was really important — details and boundaries.

The details and boundaries are always more important and always need discussion, in every aspect of live. We can both say we like action movies, but what are we really talking about, “300” or “fast and furious”? And the asshole who claims action can only be “300” and nothing else isn’t invited to movie night. Similarly, I like gory but I won’t watch the “saw” or “final destination” sequels because to me that’s gore for gore’s sake and no longer enjoyable. The asshole who claims because I like gore I must also like those movies, isn’t invited to movie night either. Have you ever tried to organize a movie night without narrowing down the genre? I have. Those were the days in my late teens/early twenties where I wandered through the DVD rental place for hours before returning home empty handed.

Circling back to the vocalization topic, I suppose I should have looked up the word beforehand, because I thought it meant “using your voice” (which doesn’t need to be words) and not so much “dirty talking”.

By the way, I know there’s going to be situations where you have to be quiet. My comments were about my experience overall, before and after kids on either side. Also I’ve had lovers who were really good with foreplay, where my orgasm count was already at a point where they could have comfortably used me to masturbate as you so eloquently put it, and still didn’t grunt, growl or moan.

Just grunting growling and moaning doesn’t make one primal. But your statement “everyone” does it during sex is just false. People who identify with the primal kink do all grunt, growl and moan. (not every animal is a cow, but every cow is an animal)

I am not conservative. I am progressive-authoritarian. And I think you’re progressive-libertarian and that’s why we’re butting heads right now. I don’t believe most people can be trusted to act in their own good, let alone the good of the community, without regulation and oversight. I do approach rules as lines not to be crossed as opposed to lines to be followed, but I firmly believe the most freedom comes within clear set boundaries otherwise we’ll just be subjected to choice-paralysis.

Writer of fiction, blogs and erotica. Frequency in that order. Popularity in reverse.

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